Master Feed : The Atlantic

Wednesday, November 16, 2011

Blog #13

Animal Abuse Crime Database Statistics -
U.S. Abuse Classifications
The graph above from http://www.petabuse.com/ demonstrates the percentages of the types of abuse crimes listed in the database. The graph is automatically generated by the database, so it provides real-time statistical data.  You can read the above chart more clearly and find information for individual states by going to: http://www.pet-abuse.com/pages/cruelty_database/statistics/classifications.php

In his book Making a Killing Bob Torres argues that just as slavery involved some humans being the property of others and hence treated just as means to the end of the owners, so animals are under the power of humans. They are bought and sold, kept and killed in appalling conditions, experimented on, and used to provide milk, meat and eggs. This is speciesism, he says, integrated into society as much as racism once was. Torres contends, the advocacy of animal rights needs to become part of a wider movement that challenges all hierarchy, domination and exploitation, whether of other humans, animals or nature. We do not need to eat meat or animal products in order to live, therefore we should not do so. Vegetarianism is not sufficient, since the production of both milk and eggs involves cruelty (e.g. cows must constantly be kept pregnant in order to provide milk). Veganism, which involves making no use of animal products at all, "must be not only the foundation and baseline of any movement to end the domination of animals, but also the daily practice of anyone who seeks to live their life free of all domination and hierarchy". But it’s all very well to talk about opposing all hierarchy, including that of humans over animals, but if it came to the crunch almost everyone would regard the life of a fellow human as more important than that of a non-human animal. So there can be no real equality of treatment between humans and animals.

Excerpt is from: Socialism or Your Money Back     http://socialismoryourmoneyback.blogspot.com/2011/05/animal-rights.html

                                Your Assignment

1.) Read and Interpret the Chart on Animal Abuse.  Then read the short excerpt about the book, Making a Killing.
2.) Highlight something you learned from the chart that you found surprising and discuss why.  Please note, it can be something that is not included within the chart, in other words, you might be wondering why a certain type of abuse is not noted.
3.) Then highlight something you learned from the excerpt about Making a Killing.

Because the post is simple and because I posted it on Wednesday, you do not need to comment back to other students unless of course you have something you would like to say to them.

Bear in mind that you may use the chart and the excerpt as a resource for your next writing assignment.

Due Date:  Next Wednesday, November 23rd.

 

40 comments:

  1. Dear Ms. Carlson,

    A couple things that I found shocking from the chart on animal abuse was that people would drown and hang their pets. I have never heard of that, but I don't deny the fact that such a thing is possible. As a child, I would watch those shows like "Animal Cops" on Animal planet and I would have never thought that there was more then just beating, neglecting, and mistreatment would go on in the world. Then, a thing I found interesting from reading the excerpt from "Making a Killing" was the fact that 4000 types of drugs are being tested on animals. I think that's just crazy. I mean, I know that you need to test products to see if they work but I honestly don't think drugs should be one of those things.

    Sincerely,
    Kirakai Momohara Pd. 2

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  2. Dear, Ms. Carlson

    If there was anything interesting that I've found on the pie chart it was having "Abandonment" be the highest percent of animal abuse. What bugs me about this is how can something like "Abandonment" be considered abuse? I mean if you tie up a dog to a chain for hours I can see how that would be a problem, but otherwise how can it really affect an animal? It would make them lonely no doubt, but do any of these animals get so lonely that they die or just run away from home? Other than that I can’t really see how this as a form of abuse, because you’re practically doing nothing to harm the animal whatsoever all you’re doing is just leaving them alone. I guess some would consider this more of a mental abuse then a physical one.

    If there was anything that I’ve learned from the “Making a Killing” Article by Bob Torres, is that there can’t really be any real form of equality between humans and animals. The only reasons why there can never be any form of equality between humans and animals is because humans throughout the course of their existence have been use to being the dominant species on the planet, with hunting animals, killing them and eating them to survive, but there are others who seem to take this superiority too far in doing impractical things like beating them, drowning them and burning them. Granted we can make factory conditions cleaner so we can have more clean produced meats, but there some laws that still come off as being questionable to us, like having people represent as defendants for animals in court and limiting us to not eat certain types of food like Foie Gras, and even eggs in some states. There are even whackos out there who suggest we eat no animal products (including Milk) at all, and I personally don’t think it’s fair that only animals can eat other animals and we can’t. Plus if we ate up all the grass and greens in the world then life will be deceased. Overall this is why I think there can never really be equality between humans and animals.

    Sincerely,

    Spenser T.
    Period 6

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  3. Dear Ms. Carlson,

    What I found surprising from the animal abuse chart was the fact that people abuse animals by hanging, drowning, and burning. Even though it was low numbers I just couldn't believe people could do that to animals. I wasn't surprised by the large number of neglect and abandonment cases but actually hanging, drowning, or burning animals was shocking and very sad to me. Something I learned from the excerpt "Making a Killing" by Bob Torres was about "speciesism". To me it's normal to use animals for milk, meat, and eggs. But I guess everyone has a right to their opinion and people who believe in veganism would be appalled just thinking of eating any kind of animal product.

    Sincerely,
    Derek Yamane
    PD 4

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  4. Dear ms.Carlson
    The most surprising part of the graph was that there were a lot of really cruel things to animals I thought were totally unthinkable to do. Even if the chart had low numbers for some of these cruelty it is still an amount that is being hurt which is really bad.something I learned from "making a killing" by bob Torres was "speciesism" which is totally normal to use animals for eating and products because it is really necessary to get those nutrients to survive and thrive.

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  5. Dear Spencer,

    I disagree with your statement that abandonment isn't considered abuse. What I'm trying to point out is that just because you don't give the animal physical harm, doesn't mean that your not affecting it's health. Animals that have been raised in a household all it's life doesn't know how to fend on it's own. Therefore, the animal could starve to death or get hurt by other means. Which means you would be indirectly abusing the animal. I respect your opinion but I highly disagree with it.

    Sincerely,
    Kirakai Momohara Pd. 2

    ReplyDelete
  6. Dear Ms. Carlson,
    To me, the most interesting part of the graph was all the unimaginable things that people actually do to animals. It amazes me to see that people have the audacity to actually do something so cruel to such an innocent creature. The animal has no option or way to fight back, so its pretty much an unfair fight.
    The whole concept of the book “Making a Killing” doesn’t really affect the thought I have towards cruelty on animals. It would make me a hypocrite to say that its animal cruelty while I buy milk, and drink. I buy eggs and use them for all kinds of purposes. Another factor is, if we all converted to grains and vegetarian ways, then the animals would suffer because then there would be a conversion of meat eaters to plant eaters and that would leave animals with less food and a larger population.
    Sincerely,
    Racquel Sandal, Pd.4

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  7. Dear Ms.Carlson,
    The thing that surprised me the most about the graph was that people even think to do that to a animal. Also how 32.3 percent is from neglect and abandonment. I thought the neglect rate of animals was very small. This shows you the sad truth about what awful people do to animals. What I learned from the book "Making A Killing" is that what he is saying is very true. We do have to think about the animals and their rights on how we treat and use them for food. Also yes their is no way for animals and humans to be treated equal. I thought me that we need animals to produce our food, and that we should consider not eating meat because as he points out we can live without eating them. I think what was interresting was that he pointed out details of why we will never be equaly treated like animals are that I didnt even consider. Really interesting and knowledgeable pieces of information. Sincerely, Lawson Fernandes Pd. 5.

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  8. I had no idea there were so many things people did to hurt animals and how many percentages there were. I thought you would just get arrested for beating, neglecting, or some other thing but wow. People can be so cruel to something that can't even talk back or show how much pain it's in.
    I think the guy is right about animals being slaves in away and we in America outlawed that over a century or something like that ago. Animal abuse is just as wrong as slavery except there is one difference, animals can't talk.

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  9. Dear Ms. Carlson,

    I was really surprised about the different types of animal abuse shown on the graph. Who would burn or hang their own animals? I think that's pretty twisted. I was completely shocked when I realized that 11.4 percent of animal abuse is shooting. That's unreal.
    From the book, "Making a Killing" by Bob Torres, I learned that animals are really being treated as slaves throughout the world at this time. They are being bought and sold and used for many different experiments. I agree with Torres, this is speciesism. I didn't really realize that until he pointed that out. It's sad to know that this is occurring throughout the world today.

    Sincerely,
    Kierstyn Oshita
    Pd. 2

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  10. Dear Ms. Carlson,
    I found the chart surprising in a way that it shows the mistreatment of animals in ways that you would never expect. When you think about animal cruelty, you would expect it to be condensed to the usual mistreatment of animals (like starvation or something). But you would never think people would be so cruel as to do stuff to animals like burning and hanging them. I mean, there is a special little percentage for animals that are burned with fireworks! That is just not right.

    The book "Making A Killing" really makes you think. All of those eggs and milk you by are coming from animals that may or may not be confined to cages and pens in appalling conditions that are probably horrible. Then again, you aren't going to stop buying eggs and milk altogether because of it, right? It does make you feel bad though, the way that humans are assuming some kind of power over animals to the extent that they force them to be confined and simply used for the sake of making food for human consumption. But there isn't really much you can do to help it apart from spreading the word.

    Sincerely,
    Carlie De Silva, Pd. 2

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  11. Dear Ms. Carlson,

    The thing that I found was most shocking in "Making a Kill" to me were that 4000 drugs were being tested on animals in Britain. Also that only 10% of the drugs would be marketed. It really saddens me to know that such a thing is happening to animals that may end up being dead because of these drugs that are being tested on them. When I looked over the pie chart, I wasn't really surprised by what it said. I already knew that most of these things happen out there in the world. But it hurts to think of all the poor animals that are being abused in so many ways. Though there are still people out there who are trying to stop this, so it makes me happy to know this. Though animals are an important part of society as they create food and other things. So it is hard to overlook the fact that no matter who you are, people will always think that animals are inferior to humans. All in all, I thought that the article was interesting for all the information it gives me.

    Sincerely,
    "Sora" Pasadava
    Period 2

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  12. Dear Ms. Carlson,
    I was appalled when i read this article and chart. I can't believe the human race can be so cruel. The horrible things people do to animals is unimaginable. I'm amazed at how people have sexual intercourse with a poor animal. Just because they're helpless critters, doesn't mean you should take advantage of them and rape them. It's disgusting and horrible. Eventhough it's a little percentage and only around 200 cases have been reported about it, just the thought of it happening is astonishing.

    Making a Killing" by Bob Torres, taught me a lot of things. Animals are mistreated and abused, basically used as slaves for us. I couldn't think of hot they're experimented on and used as told for humans. I'm baffled at this whole thing, and it makes me want to become a vegetarian.

    Sincerely,
    Kahealani Ta'a (period 2)

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  13. Dear Ms. Carlson
    After I interpretded the chart I was supprised at all of the different Iypes of abuse the animals in the U.S. endure, and i the thing that supprised me the most was the largst category on the chat was neglect/abandonement. I dident think abandonement was as bad as like drowning or burning an animal.
    Something I learned from "Making a kill" was living without using meat or animal product.
    sincerely,
    Vance Kamibayshi pd.2

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  14. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  15. Dear Ms. Carlson,
    The thing that I found surprising about this graph was that so much people neglect their animals. The statistics of the graph was shocking to me; so much people neglect and hurt their animals for no reason. The thing that caught my eye was that many people burn, stab, hang, mutilate, and have sex with their animals. Seriously what kind of people in their right mind would do that, I’m so disgusted with the statistics. No animal should be hurt no matter what the situation is; it’s disturbing and dumb. As I was taught, treat others the way you want to be treated; it should still apply to animals. I mean if you were an animal wouldn’t you want to be treated better.

    Making A Killing by Bob Torres has opened my eyes about animal abuse. He taught me so much and we don’t need to abuse our animals because they’re just like people. I love animals and they don’t need to be neglected.

    Sincerely,
    Traclyn Akiona
    Period 1

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  16. Dear Ms. Carlson,

    I found that in the chart of animal abuse crimes, 12.1% of people suffocate or choke animals. Right when I saw that, i felt my heart get crushed. I've never heard of an animal being suffocated or choked before. I've only heard of people killing and hurting animals but I've absolutely never heard of torturing an animal. 12.1% is a big number. That's like about 3 billion people maybe. I'm really surprised. In the "Making a Kill", I felt that they are a little bit too worried about eating animals. They said, "We do not need to eat meat or animal products in order to live, therefore we should not do so." I feel that that isn't true. Animals can be eaten because we humans are also animals. And sometimes animals eat animals. There is a food chain. It's nature. People die and animals die. I don't think we should be so serious and dramatic about eating animals too much. But everything else, I can agree with. I learned a lot in this blog.

    Sincerely,
    JR Quilos
    Period 2

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  17. Dear Ms. Carlson,

    I saw the pie chart and it made me sad cause of how much people are talking in all of these animals and they can't take care of them.

    sicerely,
    Camile Gange
    Pd.2

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  18. Dear Ms.Carlson
    I am so surprised that over 5,000 people abuse and abandon their animals.

    Sincerely
    Steven McCabe

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  19. Dear Ms. Carlson,

    Looking at the chart I am amazed on how many abandoned animals are out there. In my opinion why would you get the animal just to leave it hanging that really makes me mad because you should take care of something that has a beating heart no matter if its human or animal its still a life you have to take care of.

    The segment i disagree with because yes i know we kill animals and abuse them for resources but not only for food we use animals for leather and cow boy boots so all because your vegan dont mean nothing if your using other animal product other then just food

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  20. Dear Ms. Carlson,
    I found the vehicular abuse the most appalling. Why would anyone run over their dog?! or any animal for that matter! This abuse is the reason we have activists and extreme protest. According to the excerpt about the book, "Making a Killing", Bob Torres believes that the only way to "end the domination of animals" is by the conversion of everyone to veganism. I do not agree. Eating meat and the products of animals are a natural way for us to live, since the beginning of time. Vegans have made a personal choice to eat the way they do, and they are respected for that decision. But people should in no way be forced to be vegan to save the animals; it is the process of life, just how whales eat krill. In short, STOP ABUSE...but, leave extremes out of the agreement.

    Sincerely,
    Ke'ala pd.4

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  21. Mrs. Carlson,

    While i was reading the passage and looking at the chart i realize that so many animals are neglected and abandoned. The passage explains a lot of reasons why people should turn away from eating meat but Im not one to say cause i love eating meat. But he is right when he said that those who eat vegetables still eat some eggs and drink milk and it still counts as animal cruelty. Like how he said that"cows still need to be pregnant to produce milk...." Also that animals should be treated like humans cause we wouldnt eat each other so we shouldnt eat meat.

    Sincerely, Jeiel Hoapili

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  22. Dear Miss Carlson,
    I was so surprised and appalled to see that there are animal abuse cases that deal with mutilation, choking, and stabbing an animal. One that is really gross is bestiality. What would make someone do that?!
    While browsing through the different graphs I found that Hawaii doesn't really have the extreme animal abuse classifications, which is good, and Puerto Rico surprisingly only has 3 classifications of animal abuse: Neglect/Abandonment, Throwing, and Vehicular.

    In reading the short excerpt from "Making a Killing", I never thought that a cow had to be pregnant to give milk. And then it occurred to me, when do humans produce milk? When they're nursing their child! I just thought it was a regular thing for cows to make milk all the time. But of course, male cows don't produce milk Right?

    Sincerely,
    Gianne Pabustan

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  23. Dear Mrs. Carlson,
    While looking at the chart on animal abuse I learned that there are a lot more ways that animals are abused than what I thought. I never thought that trading animals, stealing animals, or throwing them counted as abuse. I also didn't know that some people would drown, hang, or poison animals, that is just cruel. From the article "Making a Kill" I have learned that people in the world are totally against killing animals for food. That angered me because I'm a meat lover, and if someone took away the meat in the world I just don't know what i would do. Everyone has the right to have their own opinion, but that doesn't mean they should go and deprive people of great things. I think that people like that should mind their own business and just worry about what they eat themselves.
    Sincerely, Anthony Aiwohi

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  24. Dear Ms. Carlson,
    i was mortified while reading this article "Making a Kill" by Bob Torres. In this article i was shocked to find that we as human beings do not need meat and animal products to live. I also learned that cows need to be pregnant in order to produce milk, i think thats terrible on many levels because it must be hard caring for a little calf inside of the cow and pumping out gallons of milk for many people around the world. I think that its cruel to do that but we cant stop that, many people cant just "cold turkey" animal products that we eat.
    Sincerely, Chas Pham

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  25. Dear Ms. Carlson,
    Something I found on the chart that was shocking was the categories. I knew that people neglected, beat, and hoarded animals but I didn’t know people poisoned and hanged animals. It’s really shocking the chart listed 22 ways people abuse their animals. Why do people go to such extremes to hurt innocent animals? I just don’t make that connection. There’s probably even more ways people abuse their animals. Oh I just remembered one, what about eating animals such as cats and dogs. I’m not sure if that still happens, but if so it should be on the list.
    As for making a killing excerpt, I didn’t know cows had it so bad I thought they just produced milk all the time now I see that’s a stupid thought. In any case even though we should be treating animals more kindly not eating them may cause some problems. For example if we didn’t eat animals wouldn’t it alter our diet and the animal population would grow. So perhaps everyone in the world going vegan would be a bad thing. I do agree with the excerpt when it says “But it’s all very well to talk about opposing all hierarchy, including that of humans over animals, but if it came to the crunch almost everyone would regard the life of a fellow human as more important than that of a non-human animal. So there can be no real equality of treatment between humans and animals.”
    Sincerely,
    Jaxey pd 6

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  26. Dear Ms. Carlson,
    I was surprised to see that shooting came in at number three on the chart. It made me realize that animal abuse has really gone to an absolute extreme. When I first saw that I was in a total shock. I also saw burning on the list. That has to be so horrible. There are some sick people on this planet.
    In the "Making a Killing" article I found that in order for us to get milk we have to constantly keep a cow pregnant. I know that's horrible but still we need to find a way to get our calcium. It sucks to keep getting pregnant but the cow has to do what it was partially created for. It's a small price to pay.
    Sincerly,
    Kara Higa pd. 5

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  27. Dear Ms. Carlson,
    I had no idea that hoarding was a kind of abuse.Isn't that usually where people collect a bunch of cats or dogs? I thought it was thoughtful to give all those animals homes. then again it could be very hard to give everyone of them the care and attention they need. But my real concern is that humans need protein and dairy in their bodies to be able to be healthy. But milking cows and collecting eggs is animal cruelty. So when an animal kills a human is that called human cruelty? I think that both animal and humans should have a balance. Yes, the human race is going over board. So make some laws protecting animals. but don't go too extreme.
    Sincerely,
    Sara Agoot pd. 4

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  28. Dear Ms.Carlson,
    Well, one thing I learned and surely didnt know is that hoarding is a type of abuse. Although i knew it was bad, I had no clue it was abuse. I knew people neglected, and beat animals but Im surprised on how they hung and killed them.
    Sincerely,
    Cortney Higa Pd4

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  29. Dear Ms. Carlson,

    While i was reading this article and was looking at the chart, i was shocked that so many animals are neglected and abandoned. The passage explains many good reasons why people should stop eating meat.They say that those who are still eat eggs and drink milk still counts as animal cruelty. Like how he that animals should be treated like humans cause we don't eat each other, so we shouldnt eat meat.

    Sincerely,
    Kristina R. Pd.6

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  30. Dear Ms. Carlson,
    As I read about making the killing I was very upset about the chart not because I disagree with it, but because of all the cruelty that us human beings do to gods creatures. I knew that drinking milk and eating cheese and other dairy products is abusing these animals but I just thought the animals only produce the milk but I never knew that they keep the animals pregnant which is a sign of animal cruelty. But what really caught my eye was in the article how Bob Torres compared the animal cruelty to slavery, because it is definetly true. It is just like slavery because humans use to be controlled by other humans or other words were slaves and now these animals are slaves to us, we control these animals and we hurt overpower them. That part of the shocked me because it is true. Amimals shouldn't be abused. Animals are gods creatures and we are gods people. Human beings needs to understand that those animals has feelings to. If something has a heart beat why end its life?
    Sincerely,
    Amanda Catbagan

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  31. Dear Mrs. Carlson

    Before I read this passage on the killing of animals, all I knew about animal cruelty was the beating and torturing from animal cops. But looking at the pie chart, I was shocked to see many different ways that people are treating their animals! When I seen that they would drown their pets it was shocking. I think these animals should have rights and we don't have to abuse them. Animals should be considers as friends, not something to use and hurt.

    After reading the article I personally think that when we use meats, milk, and eggs its okay because we humans are on the food chain and need to eat. Animals also act this way

    Sincerely,
    Ken Miyata Period 5

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  32. Dear Ms. Carlson,

    I was honestly surprised seeing that there are lots of different things people do to animal cruely. But what surprised me the most, was that there was one part that said "other" what more do people do to animals?! There's a lot of categories as it is, and to have one that says "other" honestly scares me!

    Animal cruelty is harsh, but like Ken explained, we are apart of a food chain and we need the necessary items to live; animals do the same. But they need to find a less painful way to get the necessary items from animals that we need to live. Animals do need rights, but they better not take it too far.

    Sincerely,
    Nahea Quereto Pd. 5

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  33. This post is from Edward

    Dear Ms. Carlson
    While looking and reading about the graph I have seen that there is this small section in the graph and it says the some people burn there animals and torcher by there owners and how they kill them.

    And while reading the mini summary it ssays on how people are the same as animals on how the abuse thekm like people abuse other people and that is called slavery.

    sincerely,
    Edward Keoho Pd. 6

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  34. Dear Ms. Carlson

    In looking at the graph I found out other very very very disturbing ways people treat their animals, in a small part of the graph I found out that people burn and torture their animals that's just down right disgusting.

    In reading the small summary there was a part that said "people are the same as animals" if people are the same as animals why do people burn and torture them and show them no love.
    DISGUSTING!

    Sincerely,
    Daniel Reis

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  35. Dear Ms. Carlson

    wile looking at the graph i notes that people burn there animals and hang them. that is just terrible! people in the world are just crazy and stupid, doing things to animals. and looking at the article "making a killing" it said how people want to ban eating animals. to me that is just stupid. sure i do think animals have feeling's. but we are only human, humans pretty much need meat to stay in a good weight and health, and people in the world have genes that basically make it healthier for there diets. banning meat would defeat the purpose of there health. and sure animals are being raised in tight places like saluter houses for there hole life, so if anything don't ban eating meat. just ban the abusive conditions they have to live in and have them live in a more natural environment so they don't be all abused. and plus it is healthier meat that has animals eating there natural foods.

    sincerely,
    christian perdue

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  36. Dear Ms Carlson,
    After looking through the results of the graph, I just wonder how humans can be so cruel to animals! Its so sickning to even think people could do such a thing! I mean, wow they must really hate their pets to beat them and burn them to death. They have a heart ane they also have feelings. No human has the right to kill animals like that. Its just discusting to know that their are people out there in this world that does such a terrible thing.
    Sincerely, Jen

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  37. Dear Ms. Carlson,
    What I found most surprising was that people actually abuse their animals with such things as hanging and burning.I find this so surprising because animals are so helpless. If you actually think about it, animals can't talk or communicate with humans, or do anything with any bad intentions, because they are not like humans. Therefore, they really have no reason to get so abused.

    After reading the excerpt from the book, I learned that cows constantly have to be pregnant in order to produce milk. I honestly never knew that. I can't imagine how torturous that must be for a female cow to have to bear a calf CONSTANTLY.
    I never truly realized just how much abuse animals go through. It isn't fair and I hope that one day we can get the animal cruelty under control.

    Sincerely,
    Evangeline Cook
    pd 5

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  38. Dear Ms.Carlson,
    What I found surprising on the animal abuse chart was that sick people are choking, strangling, suffocating, and throwing animals around as if they were a piece of trash. These innocent animals don't have a choice and they just have to live with all that torture. I think people that do these kinds of things to animals have a sad and disfunctional life and don't know what to do with themselves.
    What I learned from the book "Making A Killing" is that we shouldn't use animals for food and I agree that we don't need animal products to live.

    Sincerely,
    Megan Alexson
    pd 2

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  39. Dear Ms. Carlson,
    As I read down the list of the what kind of abuse dogs face, I agree with some of them because I witness some while walking around neighbor hoods. At the age of 13, I did call the police for assitance because of what I passed/observed while jogging around a neighborhood. The one abusive act that caught my eye as I was reading was "Trade/Snuggling". I honestly don't see why people could either trade or snuggle there pets. It's sad for me to hear what people do to their pets because I or one am a dog lover.

    While reading the "Making A Killing" article I can see that yes, Humans do kill cows for meat, and we do need cows for the milk that we drink but think about it, do you think that if we all become vegetarians it'll make a difference? Everyone has their own opinion, and mines is, it's pretty much a lose lose situation. Why? , because yes the cows will live If the humans become vegetarians but then the cows will need food&i thy don't eat then they'll die anyways. Everyone thinks differently, this would be my thought.

    Sincerely,
    Justice Pd. 5

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